Can the Wa stop opium cultivation within five years while it took Thailand more than 20 years to achieve something similar?
I think that they can do it. They have prohibited planting from now on and the results will be reported in the Myanmar Opium Survey 2006. While we are talking today, we have our people walking in the Wa areas to see whether or not the farmers are preparing the fields for planting. I think that they can make it be opium free, but whether it will be sustainable if the farmers don't find alternative crops is a big question. Look at Afghanistan!
Tell us, what is the prospect of solving the synthetic drug or amphetamine-type stimulants (ATS) problem in Burma?
I am not very optimistic. I come from Belgium, which is a very small country. If you see the problems we have with the ATS there as well as in other countries such as the Netherlands, the United Kingdom and the United States, how can you solve the problem in Burma and other Asian countries which are plagued with corruption, lack of law enforcement, general inefficiency and long borders? If you cry that all the pills are coming across the border, what about the precursor chemicals that come the other way around? If you don't want the pills coming to you then stop the precursor as a starter!
Expert chemists come from Taiwan to make the ATS. It is similar to a four-star French cook coming from Paris to cook there. If you talk about ATS, you need five ingredients: chemical precursors, an undisturbed place to produce it, expertise, markets and transportation routes. Myanmar only offers one of those - the undisturbed place. And it is clear that the cross-border involvement is very important when we talk about the ATS. This ATS problem will continue as long as we fail to tackle these issues within the regional context.
Some people wonder why the seizures of heroin in Burma are much bigger than in the past, at a time when opium planting has allegedly been falling.
This is not a surprise. The tolerance has declined. There was an extremely huge seizure of 496kg of heroin in early September north of Kengtung. About 70 United Wa State Army (UWSA) people were arrested, including a promising new leader. Don't forget that the Myanmar Opium Survey 2004 calculated the cultivation in the Wa area, which was about 40% of the total in the country. If you cultivate opium, you have to transport it to the markets. After the seizure, the Wa leadership reacted very constructively, saying: "We keep our hands off and we will not protect him or anyone else. It was his own responsibility, so he has to pay for it." So, for the first time the attitude of the Wa has been very promising and constructive.
The Wa government has warned farmers not to plant opium or face a punishment. What is your comment?
The Wa now want to invite the Burmese and the Chinese government and the UNODC to travel around Wa areas, and to give them the same message - "We are serious about it, you can't grow opium anymore" - and also to inspect some fields to make sure that there is no planting. But of course, I rely on my own neutral investigation that is going on at this moment to see what's going on in the Wa areas.
How are the former Wa opium farmers going to survive? What about the substitute crops?
How the farmers can cope with it economically - looking from a humanitarian perspective - is the major problem. We have to be very careful. If you cannot provide alternatives for the basic needs of the farmers, it could be a very short and brief victory. We, the international community, have to be also ready to cope with it. If we claim a 'victory' because of the opium reduction, but on the other hand we have more internally displaced people, more human trafficking, more poverty and less food and security, then we have really failed as the international community. The crucial issue is now: Are we going to be fast enough in providing the basic human needs for the people? We are rushing as much as we can to do exactly that. The United Nations as well as the non-government organisations are working with us and we are trying to establish a broad partnership.
Another point for the UNODC is: When the opium is gone, our mandate is finished and in two years we may leave the Wa region. Who will continue if the poverty issue remains? So, at this moment, discussions are going on with other UN agencies, so that they can take over our role with a relief effort after we leave. At this moment, we don't have enough resources to prevent the worst that might happen. We are starting small irrigation programmes and food distribution and we've already done some food emergency relief.
Has the opium cultivation shifted from Wa regions to other parts of Burma as some reports would have it?
We see some indications of that and we have to follow up. There are some fertile areas within Myanmar. Do you know the 'balloon effect'? When you squeeze the balloon here it will pop up somewhere else. We are very much afraid about the Kachin State, especially alongside the Chinese border. We have to watch closely what is happening there. Also, we are concerned about the Chin and Sagaing areas close to the Indian border. We have seen some opium cultivation there last year but not that significant. It was mainly small plots but it has a potential, as in the Kayah State. So far, they have stayed away from the drug trade but the economic pressures might indeed be a good incentive. Perhaps the biggest worry is the southern Shan State because there is more insurgency, less control, while the yields are much higher. The Wa, with few exceptions, live in poverty and grow opium mainly on the hillside, which is the least fertile ground to use. But in the southern Shan State, they have double cropping, using pesticides, fertilisers, on the low and flat valley areas where they can irrigate better.
Why does the Wa always get the blame?
To blame the Wa for everything serves some gangs in neighbouring countries very well because the Wa are related to the People's Republic of China (PRC) criminal gangs. As long as they can blame it on the Wa, they can do whatever they want to do.
Who are the drug gangs?
There are basically two big groups involved in the drug business. The ethnic Chinese play a major role, but to blame everything on them is too easy because if there was no corruption on both sides of the border, the ethnic Chinese couldn't operate. But they play a major role as the backbone of the operations. You could distinguish two big Chinese groups - that explains some of the political tension between the Chinese and the Thai influence in Burma.
The first group, related to the Kuomintang, are called the 'white Chinese criminal gangs'. They export drugs mostly to the US. They have got into competition recently with gangs from the PRC connected to the Wa. The first group doesn't want the Wa to get close to the Thai border because it will bring them into confrontation with each other. So, there's a lot of competition and rivalry. And if one guy says that the other is evil, it is because they both are evil! To blame everything on the Wa will benefit some gangs, because they are connected to the PRC criminal gangs.
What is your opinion about Pau Yu Chang and Wei Hsueh-kang?
Both are drug traffickers but Pau Yu Chang has a nationalistic agenda with many of his people behind him and he wants to bring them within the regional context. But to go there, he has a lot of luggage on his shoulders and this luggage is not liked by the international community. So, he needs to dump this luggage, and opium is a part of the luggage.
Pau Yu Chang, if you put enough pressure on him, might show you his leadership by getting his people away from the drugs, including synthetic drugs as well. But today, technically speaking, he is a drug trafficker. By the definition of drug traffickers, he falls in the middle of it. So, he needs to make choices very soon.
Wei Hsueh-kang is not a leader, he is a narcotic trafficker. He should be very careful at this moment. The Thais are looking for him, and if he goes to China, he is a dead man. The Chinese want him very badly. If he can't make a deal very soon on the same terms as former drug kingpin Khun Sa, then his days are numbered!
In one exiled publication, its author criticises you and, among other subjects, your satellite imagery. Your response?
This is a fair point. I saw the publication and it is a pity that they think this way. First of all - in my position - you get attacked from many sides. What I try to do is to live up to my mandate, to be fair and objective. I get a lot of information from inside and outside. So I try to the best of my knowledge to be objective. The methodology we the UNODC uses and what the United States of America uses are compatible. We use ground surveys because we also need social and economic data. The Americans rely very much on satellite images, but at the end of the day we come up with very similar results. I am not shy of our results and such criticism doesn't touch me at all. At the end of the day my argument is: If you don't believe my UNODC results then take the United States' results.
What do you think about the claims that the satellite can be fooled by planting opium mixed with other plants?
Correct! And this is happening in the southern Shan State at this moment. But in those areas where poverty is a reason for the poppy cultivation, where they grow it on the slopes, you don't have a double planting nor have to hide it because it is really not considered a crime but an activity driven by the poverty.
Are there any areas in Burma where the UNODC can't enter?
There are some areas where we can't enter. And that's why we have to also use the satellite pictures. You can't really hide opium fields easily. We can't enter, for example, areas controlled by the opposition Shan State Army-South. But we move freely and without any problems in the Wa area called Special Region 2 close to the Chinese border.
Some people claim that the SPDC runs the drug business. Your opinion?
This is absolute rubbish and is not confirmed by any of the law enforcement organisations. There's surely corruption in Burma and no one will deny the fact of collusion between the military and drug traffickers. But the allegation that there's a central organisation in Rangoon that oversees all Burma and is collecting money is totally nonsense!
How is your cooperation with the Burmese anti-narcotic authorities?
The Central Committee for Drug Abuse Control (CCDAC) is doing a good job. They cooperate very closely with the US Drug Enforcement Agency, the Australian Federal Police and the Japanese. The overall cooperation with them has not been perfect, but altogether they are good and very cooperative.
The CCDAC is a government department and they have limitations as well. The Ministry of Home Affairs recently established a new office called the Department against Transnational Crime to combat such crimes as human trafficking, money laundering, international crimes and terrorism. As for human trafficking and money laundering, our cooperation has been good but we still have to go much further.
Has the removal of former Prime Minister Khin Nyunt changed the drug trade?
Under Khin Nyunt, you had a lot of very shady deals. There were a lot of ceasefire and other small agreements concerning all kinds of business. Many people were untouchable. Today, you can see the last seizure of 496kg of heroin with Wa people being involved, with Wa cars, with a Chinese syndicate which has ordered it. Perhaps during Khin Nyunt times, this kind of seizure would have been far more difficult.